John is just thinking what he is 'told' to think. As much as you may disagree with religion, some people actually need it to correctly function, for lack of being able to make decisions on their own. It comforts them to have someone else make the decisions for them, whether they are the right ones, or not.

In fact, homosexual unions were a ceremonial rite in the Christian church at one point.
http://anthropologist.livejournal.com/1314574.html

So when they say 'restore the sanctity of marriage', I'm not sure that people like John fully understand what it is they are asking for.

It is however, incredibly amusing to watch them get agitated on command, without being aware of their own church history.

Patrick first let put it this way.I'm probably more educated than you are. Plus why would I listen to an atheist like you. Most other religions are entitled to believe what they want, but a majority are false or pagon gods! Like I said Odumba is not a true Christian and he'd scum too me! Bye bye Odumba!!

This puts Bowells findings in dispute and not to be 100% accurate!

http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/2002May/may23tru.htm

At least John is being honest when he says 'probably more educated'. He leaves room for the obvious fact that he is in fact, not more educated. Quite frankly, a book that claims that bats are 'birds' is not something a rational person would be claiming a basis of education off of in the first place.

I take comfort in the fact that religion is becoming less and less important in peoples life, especially in the younger generation. It gives me hope that one day we may crawl out of our own self-inflicted dark ages. In the meantime, we will have to listen to the old guard complain about how great their magical sky daddy for a few more decades.

Tim you are an atheist too, why would I ever listen to your convoluted thinking .

Tim you sound like a typical atheist and you will face the ultimate fairh one day!! Ouch ouch!

Because atheists created the science that created the tools you are using today to post your superstitions.

The computer you are typing on
The Internet you are connecting to
The Operating System you are using

If you were a REAL man of god, you would eschew all things blasphemous. I guess when it suits your purposes, those silly rules can be ignored.
In reality, We are both just a matter of degrees as to how many of those rules are silly and should be ignored. That's all.

Tim now you are talking "fairy tale"! Atheist did squat!

Arguing with Christians is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good you are at chess, the pigeon is just going to knock all the pieces over, crap on the board, and strut around like it is victorious.

I do love what I do, so I'm fine with that. I'd be doing it anyway, might as well get paid for it.

Plus, I'm sure the people I employ enjoy it as well.

I'm not exactly sure what your point is, actually. Can you clarify why I would not want to do what I love to do? Or why it would be a good thing if I didn't work?

Looks like a two way street to me Laurie. There is a lot of Jdgement going on between Tim and Patricks too.

I hope that you don't vote for Romney then. His religion believes in multiple gods.

Doctors PRACTICE medicine, Lawyers PRACTICE law.....Christians practice Christianity. It is called Practice or a Practice because no one is perfect and the science is not perfect or perfected. People practice Christianity because they are not perfect. We should strive to be but even that is practice, we are all far fromn perection. I think you know and understand these things. Your statement that "These are things that most 'Christians' do NOT practice"....is somewhat judgemental in itself if you asked my opinion, but I do understand you are trying to make a point, but the best point is made not by trying to make a fact out of your personal observations and opinions. As far as the GAY part goes, I do not judge them, they will be judged on LIFE as a whole in the end. I do not understand it but to each his own. As far as same sex marriage goes, I am not sure why it is necessary. Civil Unions provide the benefits in most cases these couple desire and that is the typical driving force. Love seems to come in second to the "benefits" when I listen to their debates. That is of course my opinion. Same sex and Christianity is no different than Buddhism or Islam. Those faiths do not accept same sex marriage either. to blame bigotry on Christians is incorrect, most religions do NOT endorse same sex marriage.

Doctors PRACTICE medicine, Lawyers PRACTICE law.....Christians practice Christianity. It is called Practice or a Practice because no one is perfect and the science is not perfect or perfected. People practice Christianity because they are not perfect. We should strive to be but even that is practice, we are all far fromn perection. I think you know and understand these things. Your statement that "These are things that most 'Christians' do NOT practice"....is somewhat judgemental in itself if you asked my opinion, but I do understand you are trying to make a point, but the best point is made not by trying to make a fact out of your personal observations and opinions. As far as the GAY part goes, I do not judge them, they will be judged on LIFE as a whole in the end. I do not understand it but to each his own. As far as same sex marriage goes, I am not sure why it is necessary. Civil Unions provide the benefits in most cases these couple desire and that is the typical driving force. Love seems to come in second to the "benefits" when I listen to their debates. That is of course my opinion. Same sex and Christianity is no different than Buddhism or Islam. Those faiths do not accept same sex marriage either to blame bigotry on Christians is incorrect, most religions do NOT endorse same sex marriage.

Freddie, lets try not to be judgemental and dictatorial!

I agree...but the superiority thing works both ways. I think you are implying people use religion to to make themselves feel superior, but, as you said, in the posts above, there are a lot of people on the "other side" of the religion stance, that are looking down on those who follow the Bible. That is my point, there is a superiority issue on those opposing John as well. They can look down on religious people, but that does not make THEM superior either....as a matter of fact, it makes them hypocritical.

Lots of Catholic priests apparently don't know the true meaning of Catholicism.

John, I spent 12 years in catholic school.
4 of them in seminary.

I can assure you, there are significantly more people that came out of that education laughing at the church, than there are those that stay behind in the church. Not surprisingly, the percentage is about the same as those who believe in UFOs. 30%

Leviticus 11:13-19
Seriously, do you honestly think that a bat is a bird? Your bible clearly tells you so. Is it wrong? If not, is a moth a bird too? Who picks and chooses? You? The pope? the guy down the street? Or, better yet, the guy with the gun?

You're delusional if you think that it's just one mislead priest.

Oh yeah. If there's only one true god, why do you pray to saints instead of him?

Ken read and learn! I didn't day one priest! They did wrong ,but there's a lot more lay people out there doing it more. Not just priest abuse children! Doctors , lawyers, factory workers, and all types including from your work force do too!

Ken by reading your comment I sense you aren't Catholic! They do praise God the most, but can pray to Jesus, saints and angels. Is there something wrong with that? Please learn some theology.

John,
Doctors, lawyers, and all the other professions you mention lack one thing the church has;

actively protecting the child molesters in its ranks, and shuffling them around the country to keep them from staying in one place too long. Before electronic record sharing, it was the perfect way to hide their crimes. They did this knowingly.

You feel free to show me how the AMA, or the bar association of any state, has actively protected and enabled the crimes against children committed by its members. Let me save you some time, you will never come close to finding anything like that anywhere else. You will not come close to the tens of thousands of children abused within the church.

The fact that you are trying to defend this, shows some important information to everyone about your personal ethics.

John,

Why do you waste your time praying to saints and Mary? They can't answer your prayers, only the God can.

Since you're religion is so important to you, why do you support a presidential candidate that doesn't believe in your Bible or it's teachings?

John,

It doesn't sound like you know your religion as well as you thought. Can you tell us what Bible verse tells you that you should be praying to saints instead of God?

Not all Mormons believe in multiple Gods, or multiple wives. Mormonism is one religion that actually leaves some of those choices to the individual. Unusual yes, but true. Mitt Romney has made his stand clear. He is not in favor of multiplke wives, be believes in one God, and he believes in Creation through Evolution. You cannot group Mitt Romney into one box any more than you can say Obama is not religious because be believes abortion and same sex marriage is OK. Does that make him a non-Christian?

I agree and that was my point from the beginning of this string. Some people like to set rules, however, they are the first to break them and are usually OBLIVIOUS that they even did breal their own rules......bigotry comes in many forms as does hypocrisy.

What a deal now watch Bob Jonas and Ken come back with their comments, they will claim their comments are gospel and they are only right!!

If he was would you find that more attractive?

Homophobia and negative dispositions against homosexual behavior are linked with homosexual arousal in the individuals that hold those views.

https://my.psychologytoday.com/files/u47/Henry_et_al.pdf

They lash out at others, even attempt to restrict the rights of others, in an attempt to displace the guilt they feel for themselves, taught to them in their upbringing.

Don't worry John, when you accept yourself, others will too.

Tim,
You may be on to something.
Romney expressed this same attitude when he was in high school and bullied a fellow student that they assumed was gay.

He plays of the assault as a 'prank' instead of taking ownership of what he did.

Laurie,

Religion is not mentioned once in the two minute video. Good day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrD8zvCUtWc

Of course you would believe that but that's NOT what he said. He said "“Perhaps the most important question to ask a person of faith who seeks a political office, is this: does he share these American values: the equality of human kind, the obligation to serve one another, and a steadfast commitment to liberty?".

Explain how prohibiting gay marriage falls in line with "the equality of human kind" ?

I'd get your money back on that phone then. It shouldn't be auto-correcting to words that don't exist in the English language.

Part of being educated is knowing how to use your tools.
Blaming your tools it not part of being educated. They are inanimate objects, and only do what you tell them to do.

Either turn off auto correct(did you know that most people do this), or take responsibility for your actions. Blaming your phone, for your lack of knowing how to correctly use it is nonsensical.

Some people even call this outlook 'personal responsibility'.

You still have not answered any of the questions posed to you, by myself and others. I'm guessing the obvious reason is that you have no answers.

In Genesis, 1:5
"God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning"
Yet, the 'lights' were not created until the fourth day;
Genesis 1:16
"And God made the two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; he made the stars also"

Why does Genesis 6, directly contradict the very next chapter, Genesis 7?
Genesis 6:19
"And of every living thing of all flesh, you shall bring two of every sort into the ark"
Genesis 7:2-3
"Take with you seven pairs of all clean animals, the male and his mate; and a pair of the animals that are not clean, the male and his mate; 3 and seven pairs of the birds of the air also"

Suddenly it went from one pair in chapter 6, to 7 in chapter 7?

John, I have to wonder if you have actually read the bible. To claim it is correct seems to show that you have not.

You've lost the debate when you have to resort to name calling.

Ken very interesting ! Not one of my comments here did I call any others names that have left their comments!!!!

Read the comment that you left above that I commented on.
Tell me how that is not name calling.

So what Ken get over it ! It's about Odumba the President and no one here! Did I offend your bro?

@ jaskie 1505.....is this all you have? I regard your comments about John's spelling as derogatory as everyone points ot that John's comments about name calling be a third grade tactic. You have stooped to the same level and this is not the first time I see you as the spell check police. Anyway, all Johns problem is he feels he needs to respond QUICKLY and does NOT spell check. My SUGGESTION TO JOHN is slow down and do a spell check before posting. A few seconds will save you the grief of people chiming in the conversation when they really have nothing to add. They are just attack dogs.

No you didn't. Claiming you did something when it is obvious that you haven't is amusing at the very least.

Is a bat a bird?

Do you not understand the question?

If you did, just copy/paste them below and that will solve your problem.

By the way Tim a bat is actually a mammal, but!

Let's start with the simple answer. Obviously, Linnean classification was not available in the time of the writing of Leviticus and Deuteronomy, and the scientific definition of what a "bird" was did not exist either. Classification of animals and things was made by different means: function or form. In this case, the word we render birds means simply "owner of a wing", the word being 'owph, which comes from a root word which means to cover or to fly.

Yes John,

Its almost like we as a society have learned how the world works in the 2000(1600) years since that was written. So either the bible is not accurate, and our knowledge supersedes it, or... bats are birds. Mammals are clearly mentioned separately in Genesis, yet bats are still called birds.

Perhaps you would like to now enlighten us all why 'fish' are never mentioned in the flood story of Noah, until AFTER the flood was over. God didn't want to save the fish? Or were they magically created afterward outside of the seven days of genesis?
Genesis 6:13
"I have determined to make an end of all flesh"
...except fish.

Or why gods 'promise' that day will always follow night, doesn't hold true above certain latitudes for months out of the year?

There are literally thousands of contradictions, some only separated by a few sentences. Genesis itself has dozens of these contradictions. Trying to be an apologetic and write them off as 'hard to understand' is just a cop out for not being able to face the reality that the book is not as factual or accurate as you like to claim. That the stories that one person wrote, contradict the stories that another person wrote in the same book. You are basically running your life off of a 2000yr old game of 'telegraph/telephone'

More apologetics from John. Trying so very hard to rationalize the errors.

Perhaps you can explain why the Oaxaca mythology from 1000 years BC, clearly identified bats and birds as separate? But the bible, 1000 years later, does not.

Were they time travelers?

Did you know that Romney doesn't share your views or those of your church when it comes to religion?

Did you know that your church has actively covered up crimes and protected the ones responsible?

John, read up thread a few posts, where I clearly describe my education in those regards.

It seems you read the posts here as much as you read the bible.

Tim,

I never mentioned I read the bible very much or as well versed as you are. Plus I don't care if you read the bible 365 days a year ,24/7 and stand on you head! You are no better than I! It's really about going to mass every Sunday, being  faithful to ones religion, don't be unfaithful to all mighty God the father by committing mortal or egregious sins! I know of many people who avidly read the bible and go to church , but that's all for none once they believe in abortion and same sex marriage. So if you want to brag how much you know about the bible go stand on a mountain top , bang your chest and tell who ever wants to listen to you!!!

Did you retire so you can post nonsense comments on Patch all day? It's so nice outside. Why don't you go out for a walk or something? Do something productive to contribute to society. Stop arguing about stupid crap online like a loser! Jeez, what a life you must lead.

Freddie if you don't like my comments, don't read them. Plus are you going to make me? I doubt it ! Jealous I retired much younger and before you ? Plus you would be very surprised where and what I do to help my community, so kindly shut up and don't judge me!

Jaskie please tell me what I did not answer ? Plus it's actually none of your business who I am.

Ken I can answer your question and of course you will retort back that you are right and I am wrong.
Here's one example how I was taught and raised and will continue to believe the rest of my life!
It's against the laws of procreation and humans are intended to live as married couples. 1 man & 1 women!!! Period!!!

Wait I'm wrong and Ken is always right? Not!

It has nothing to do with being 'right' John. Opinions can not be wrong or right, facts can.

Until I see the fact that you also want to prevent rights to divorced people(the law according to Corinithians 7, or when you call for the marriage of a rapist to their victim, or the stoning to death of a non-virgin bride I doubt your credibility when quoting these 'laws'.

That is why it is important for you to read the source of all these 'laws' you keep basing your life on. If you will not adhere to them all, but only pick and choose those that match your prejudices, why should anyone take you seriously?

John Moreli,

Thanks for making it clear. You don't believe that gays are "human kind".

What about infertile couples? They can't procreate so I guess they don't have to be treated equally either. At least according to what you say.

What about the separation of church and state? Why should there be laws based on your religion and not other Christian religions?

Ken we can piss back and forth over this issue! Lets leave it at this ! You believe what you want and I believe what I want! Case closed! At this time it's each ones personal belief!

John Moreli,
Thanks for clearing it up for all of us. You've told Ken that you believe that only heterosexual Catholic couples that are able to procreate and don't use any form of birth control are what you define as "human kind".

Where do priests and nuns fall then because they don't procreate.

Well, at least they're not supposed to be we know that many do have sex outside of marriage.

The point, that you have been directed into over this long stream of comments, is that you think you know what the laws to live your life by should be. You base this on your own internal 'soul' and how you think you can best live those ideals into actions that impact your life. However, the same book you draw your inspiration from, also commands a rapist marry his victim(Deut. 22:28-29), non-virgin brides are to be stoned to death(Deut. 22:19), the horrid treatment of a specific ethnic group of slaves is clearly law(Exodus 21), and the keeping of child slaves is encouraged(Lev. 25:45).

YOU choose what laws you think you should live your life by, from a longer list of laws that you mostly ignore. Why would you want deny others to choose which laws they want to live their life by, just as you do, if the answer in their soul for one out of hundreds of these laws is different than yours?

Tim why make quotes from the bible ! It's apparent to me you are not a practicting Catholic! Like I said quote all the verses from the bible, but I will not listen to it as it has no bearing with same sex marraige. All the quotes you post still have nothing to do with the issue. It sounds like you are an ex disgruntled Catholic that lost his way! Poor soul!

I'm 100% positive you don't understand this discussion.

If this confuses you, spend more time reading it until you understand what is being discussed. It will help you coherently articulate your point.

Tim I understand the discussion perfectly! You just don't like the fact that i don't agree with you gays getting married! Stuff it already ! Bitter lost Catholic !

Jaskie. Try again my lost child. You keep on saying factual information. There is none for same sex marraige, other than its not normal.

You didn't answer the question.

What verse in the Bible tells you to pray to saints and not God?

The teachings should be based on scripture.

What Bible verse says that you should be praying to saints? Maybe you could ask the priest when you go to mass tomorrow.

Of course he did not write it, it doesn't call anyone names.

And he still did not answer the question.

Jaskie are you and Tim an item? That's all Tim has been doing is copying and pasting quotes from the bible! And no it's not a copy and past it's from a paper at my parents house on prayer! Tim I did answer your stupid question! Catholics can pray to Saints!

Really John Moreli?
It's word for word from this link.
http://catholicism.about.com/od/thesaints/f/Pray_to_Saints.htm

Tom over the years things get passed around and over time make it to the internet! Now you will tell me it's not possible !

John Moreli,

For a man that makes so many spelling mistakes when you type, don't expect us to believe that you were able to type that off of some paper at your mom's house without any errors.

What Bible verse says that you should be praying to saints?

I'm not telling you anything.
I am asking you;

What Bible verse says that you should be praying to saints?

Time for you to practice what you pray.

" Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.
Where there is hatred, let me sow love."

What Bible verse says that you should be praying to saints?

Bob you know nothing about me! P Happy married and have my own house! I visit my parents who are in their 80's , do you visit your parents ? Your mouth will get you in trouble one day! Sorry you have to work until you are 70.

praying 'for' someone

is not the same as

praying 'to' someone

You answered a question that nobody asked, 'what bible verse says to pray FOR saints?. The original question still remains;

What Bible verse says that you should be praying TO saints?

Does this mean anyone who lives with their parents is now considered a sponge in Bob's eyes? (PS. I am a grandparent and do not live with my parents, they are deceased, and have no children living with me).....but, in this day and age someone living with their parents should not be considered a sponge. There is a lot of that under this presidents economic policies and lack of ideas. Or is there a superiority issue here?

Moreli, I am they saint you pray to on a daily basis. I am here to help your get a clearer vision and straighten out your twisted mind.

Bob you are a delusional old man! Work to you are70!

John Moreli,

You said that you pray TO saints.I'm asking you what Bible verse tells you to pray TO them and not to God.

I've asked a pastor why the catholic church does this and he said that it is not based on Biblical doctrine. So I'm asking you, as the devote Catholic that you are, what Bible verse tells you to pray TO saints?

If can't find one, that's fine. Just admit that what you practice is not based on the Bible.

You said that you pray TO saints!

I'm asking you what Bible verse tells you to do that.

It's really a simple question. I'm not sure why you're having such a hard time answering it and providing the verse(s).

The pastor that I asked said that it is not based on Biblical doctrine so yes, it is wrong.

You are free to believe whatever you choose but don't pretend that you do this because the Bible tells you to when you can't give us even one verse out of the millions in there that tells you to pray to saints.

Tom why is there prayers of Saint Patrick, Michael,Anthony and so forth! Care to explain or dispell that?

John Moreli,

What are you trying to say?

"was is there prayers of..." ?

What are you waiting for me to explain or dispel?

By the way, still waiting for that Bible verse that tells you to pray to saints.

What a Deal. Not every one who lives with their parents is a sponge. That comment only applied to Moreli since he has the money and the where with all to live on his own, per his own comments. If he is capable of retiring at 48 he shouldn't need to live off his parents. And yes, I am a legend in my mind and in the mind of all my loyal followers. Don't get jealous. Some day you and Moreli can follow each other around, or maybe you already do as partners in a same sex marriage. Now that would be a sight. LOL

Oh Bob, you are not envied by me or your loyal followers...do they know they follow? Do you really have any? PLEASE, tell us WHO THEY ARE? LOL.... I bet you won't though as you either have no followers or you don't have the courage. Superiority complex I think. Do they follow you real close so if you stop real fast you can get that feeling GAY men get? LMFAO. Now, THAT would be a sight. That's all I'll say as I won't stoop any lower to your level, I especially won't stoop around you as I am hetero. Not that there is anything wrong with being GAY. I just am not, and don't want you thinking my stooping is a come on to you.

Not that I care but it appears you may be GAY. Thats fine.

Wow Brian road rage! How stupid can one be? You may just pick on the wrong person one day?

Bob I think you are a bitter ugly lonely gay man and non religious !

No reason to read about Martin Luther who was excommunicated by the Pope and he then became a Protestant ! No thanks! Do you still know the real reason Catholics allow annulments! They don't just give them to anyone! Read the Canon law already and learn something!!

Tom no one ever said annulments are biblical! It's one of two things Canon law 1060 and a civil preceding! I suggest again that you speak to a theologian to have all your convoluted questions answered ! Like I said I'm not an expert on the bible , but go by my teachings and from others that are far more well versed in the bible or religion than you are!

John Moreli,

To quote you, you said "In the NT, Jesus affirms that divorce isn't permitted,
and marriage is elevated to a sacrament," but yet your religion has decided to make exceptions to what Jesus said by using the word annulment instead of divorce.

So who are you to say that other Christians that they can't make exceptions as well?

You're two for two. Praying to saints and divorce/annulments. Neither of which you can find a Bible verse to support what you do.

Hey Tom read the Canon law and learn something!! Plus once again one can pray through Saints! Do me a favor and shut up already as you are no expert in the field! You are like a dam kid, mommy mommy show me! Go to your room already! Do you know why its acceptable to give a Catholic an annulment and what the requirements are? And yes its a sin for a Catholic to get divorced because of lam excuses!

John Moreli,

You are the one that said that you pray TO saints. Now that's being questioned and you can't find anything to back up why you do that, you get a little testy.

Canon law is not the Bible. It is the rules that the Catholic church made up.

There is nothing in the Bible that says that annulments are OK. It's a rule made up by your church. Why should a priest get to judge if the marriage should be annulled or not? He hasn't a clue what it's like to be married.

Have you ever heard of Martin Luther? Read up on him and you may learn something.

Moreli, your actions and comments speak louder than your words. They tell me and others you are a bitter and hateful person. You sound very unforgiving. Not something most religions teach. I believe you are a USER of religion to punish other people, not to help other people. That said, I forgive you Moreli. You can use all the forgiveness you can get.

If they are divorced and not annulled its a sin for them as well as using birth control. Its not just Catholic religion ,but all religion that suffers the same fate.That is something they will have to face on judgement day.. As far as the alleged crimes they will and have to be dealt with.Don't assume all Churches look the other way in that regard. Why do I even listen to you about religion if you don't even practice it! Now that's hypocritical???

John Moreli,

The point that you're not getting is that the Catholic Church has made up rules that are not Biblical. The Bible doesn't talk about annulments so why do you allow them?

Many of the crimes are not alleged but factual as are the cover-ups that the Catholic Church made to prevent lawsuits. Why? The almighty dollar that they don't want to pay out.

FYI, I am very religious. I just don't follow the made up teachings of the Catholic faith.

John Moreli,
I'm not a Catholic. I'm showing you how your religion has made up rules that go against what is written in the Bible.

John Moreli,

What conclusion is it that you think only catholics can make?

Either the Bible tells you to pray TO saints and tells you that annulments are allowed or it doesn't.

You've been asked MANY times to provide Biblical reference and you haven't.

Instead, you pick and choose which verses in the Bible you want to follow.

What false gods and pagans (the correct spelling) do you think that I worship or believe in?

Racism and bigotry? Haven't see that here! Are you delusional ?

Yes Kennedy was Catholic and a dam good President! Plus I will not vote for a president if they support abortion or same sex marriage regardless of their religion! Ain't supporting Drew, even if it were you I would feel the same!

Brush up on your knowledge of Kennedy an you will see that he didn't abide by the rules of your faith.

It's good to know that you don't base your beliefs on what is written in the Bible. Instead, you pick and choose which ones you want to follow.

That says a lot!

I take my beliefs what my Church teaches me and from the old and new testament!

You wouldn't support me you already made that clear. And no I'm not delusional nor am a a Bigot. Now off to confession because your words say more than you think. Good Day!

Yes I'm very happy not to support same sex marriage! :-)

You're saying that it would be the same thing, just a different word. Kind of like how the Catholic church uses the word annulment instead of divorce.